tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post6744034500030912007..comments2024-03-28T03:10:23.679-07:00Comments on Polemarch: Decisive BattlesThe Polemarchhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10958736917525649927noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-77804354397410232002013-08-05T04:29:03.907-07:002013-08-05T04:29:03.907-07:00Nice example. A lot does seem to depend on your ti...Nice example. A lot does seem to depend on your time scale, although not everything.<br /><br />For another example, was Marathon decisive, or, from the perspective of Greece in, say, 480 BC, was it not decisive enough, or even too decisive? After all, if Athens had lost Marathon, the Persians probably wouldn't have invaded again.The Polemarchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10958736917525649927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-39810743018694218172013-08-05T03:51:45.101-07:002013-08-05T03:51:45.101-07:00Hi,
I would add that a battle result is decisive o...Hi,<br />I would add that a battle result is decisive or not just in a limited period of time. For instance Austerlitz was a decisive battle (I suppose most will agree), but its "decisiveness" lasted a little more than 3 years. Being french emperor in December 1805 we could surely say "That one is decisive". In April 1809 the saying could be "I suppose it was not decisive enough".<br />Regards,<br />AdamAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-5525816168444411192013-07-30T00:17:58.258-07:002013-07-30T00:17:58.258-07:00I suppose that this shows the complexity of warfar...I suppose that this shows the complexity of warfare. Even an operationally decisive defeat means little if the will and resources are present to have another go. If they are not, then decisive tactically can mean decisive operationally and politically too.<br /><br />So in 1688, James did not have the will to fight, even though he had the resources. A disunited body politic did not help, granted, but essentially he lacked the will to reduce the country to another civil war.<br /><br />So I think, resources, granted, but also will, or desire to come back and win next time. I suppose the various coalitions against Napoleon probably count here as well.The Polemarchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10958736917525649927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-37040534211355114412013-07-29T07:56:52.604-07:002013-07-29T07:56:52.604-07:00Quite. I was reminded of William of Orange in 1688...Quite. I was reminded of William of Orange in 1688 who did the decisive follow up without the bother of fighting a decisive battle first. A couple of crappy skirmishes and help yourself to the crown.<br /><br />Incidentally I think Ross makes a good point about Quebec earlier. If that had gone the wrong way, the British would just have come back the following year for another go. (A bit like a contentious vote in Parliament - it's repeated annually until the right answer is reached.)<br />So if the resources are available to one side it becomes not so much IF the decisive battle is fought as WHEN.Chris Gricenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-46360016930496358592013-07-29T07:39:49.533-07:002013-07-29T07:39:49.533-07:00I suspect you are right, in that a lot depends on ...I suspect you are right, in that a lot depends on the follow up. <br /><br />Mind you, I'm not sure William counts as a great general, but let's not do that argument just now. <br /><br />The problem with wargamers, inasmuch as it is a problem. in trying to persuade them to look beyond the table top, towards the campaign and war. Not too many do campaign games, so the table top battle is there in a vacuum, with little or no context or consequences. <br /><br />And yet we still talk of 'realism'?The Polemarchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10958736917525649927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-78312217408515503042013-07-29T07:15:31.725-07:002013-07-29T07:15:31.725-07:00I think you are too hard on wargamers, it is a hum...I think you are too hard on wargamers, it is a human condition to rejoice at victory without regard for long term results. The runner arrives, "rejoice, we conquer", the bells ring, people flock to the streets cheering, newspapers and tv celebrate how brave our boys were and how clever our generals. "We've taken Baghdad, the boys will be home by Christmas". and so on. <br /><br />It is the mark of the truly great generals that they usually tried to avoid fighting in situations where a victory was meaningless and when they did win a victory, instead of resting on their laurels they sprang in to action and pursued and exploited to the hilt. Look at Hastings, it wasn't decisive because Harold and a bunch of thegns and huscarles were slain, it was decisive because William rapidly spread out, pushing hard to overcome and disperse remaining resistance, seize London and be crowned, planting garrisons, bribing the nobles and generally preventing the opposition from coalescing. If he'd sat tight and feasted, odds are good that the Saxons would have rallied under King Edgar and a whole new campaign of conquest against an organized enemy would have had to be fought instead of 4 years of putting down scattered revolts. <br /><br />But all that happens beyond the tabletop. Wargames are more like football matches. Winning a match by 3 goals to none is an impressive win but if it was an exhibition match its less meaningful than winning the world cup in a shoot out and even that is only good until the next series starts.Ross Mac rmacfa@gmail.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04053555991679802013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-64854939691672140802013-07-29T00:30:32.732-07:002013-07-29T00:30:32.732-07:00Thank you for eminently sensible suggestions.
I t...Thank you for eminently sensible suggestions.<br /><br />I think a lot depends on perspective; as wargamers, one side wins the battle or not. We do not have to unpack the consequences. Some decisively won battles remain unexploited (as an example, perhaps, Marston Moor?). some indecisive battles are exploited (Cropredy Bridge) and so on.<br /><br />i think that on the original battlefields, it was unlikely that most successful generals would conuslt after and say 'By Gad, Tomkins, we've just won a decisive battle!'. Battles are more of a piece with the whole campaign and war.<br /><br />maybe there is such a thing as wargamer's myopia, where we just see the battle, and not the context?The Polemarchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10958736917525649927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-54352958077698746082013-07-28T05:28:23.278-07:002013-07-28T05:28:23.278-07:00Ah, now there's a thing. The list of POTENTIAL...Ah, now there's a thing. The list of POTENTIALLY decisive battles must be even longer. Mention was made in an earlier blog of the proto-Crecy which never took place. If it had, and the French had won, the Hundred Years' War might never have happened. So the fact that the battle did not take place was pretty decisive in itself.<br />Food for wargaming thought.Chris Gricenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-83288353420212784982013-07-27T18:35:39.458-07:002013-07-27T18:35:39.458-07:00Its interesting that several of these battles are ...Its interesting that several of these battles are decisive in a negative sense. That is if the winning side was reversed the consequences MIGHT have been drastic. So at Marathon, some Greeks were already in favour of making accommodations with Persia like their Asiatic cousins. If the Persians had routed the Athenian army and then sailed around and sacked Athens on their first try, there might not have been significant Greek and Persian wars or an Alexander. <br /><br />Likewise with Saratoga, if the campaign been executed as planned and been successful, it might have crushed the rebellion instead of fueling it and convincing France it was safe to join in.<br /><br />At Valmy, a French defeat SHOULD have seen the allies enter Paris and restore the monarchy leading perhaps to civil war with external interference or who knows what. <br /><br />The trick is, with the negative battles, we'll never know whether another battle would have reversed the decision or if it really did matter.<br /><br />Gaugamela is one that might come close since the issue was still in doubt before it was fought and not only was the Persian army destroyed as a fighting force but the empire crumbled with it. <br /><br />Antioch (Aurelian vs Zanobia) is another which not only destroyed the Palmyran army but also their state but were there long term effects for the rest of the world? Probably Lots more of those sort with local effects for those involved without changing the tide of human history.<br /><br /> <br />In any event, I have a hard time separating a battle from is campaign and war. Over here the Plains of Abraham 1759 is always described as decisive, the end of New France but British were already planning the march on Montreal and might well have been back by sea the next year if they'd lost. Command of the sea and caring about winning were more decisive than the particular battle.<br /><br />Ross Mac rmacfa@gmail.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04053555991679802013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-83519701418686314762013-07-27T14:09:03.666-07:002013-07-27T14:09:03.666-07:00Just so. I think that any definition of decisive b...Just so. I think that any definition of decisive battle is going to be arguable, without throwing in the split of tactically or strategically decisive. Some battles, like Solway Moss, will be one and not the other.<br />And there are some silly anomalies. Do you call Glenshiel a decisive battle? It probably fulfils both sets of criteria; one side was wiped out and it ended the 1719 rebellion. But was it really a battle?<br />I think any of us naming, Creasey style, fifteen decisive battles would come up with a different list.<br />Next up - the six greatest commanders in history. (Ducks thrown copy of Face of Battle.)Chris Gricenoreply@blogger.com