tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post8617686452549526135..comments2024-03-28T03:10:23.679-07:00Comments on Polemarch: Historical AccuracyThe Polemarchhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10958736917525649927noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-63461081038103962012016-06-01T05:55:24.915-07:002016-06-01T05:55:24.915-07:00We know that Alexander wasn't alone, because h...We know that Alexander wasn't alone, because he stabbed some of his friends when he was drunk.<br /><br />Caesar, of course, only reported what the greatest man in Gaul did, one Julius of that ilk.<br /><br />And so on. One of the interesting bits of modern historiography is the attempt to recover the history of the ordinary person - the women, children, slaves and poor free citizens who are otherwise anonymous. it is hard to do.<br /><br />The only other comment I have is WH Auden's poem, To the Unknown Citizen:<br /><br />He was found by the Bureau of Statistics to be<br />One against whom there was no official complaint,<br />And all the reports of his conduct agree<br />That, in the modern sense of the old-fashioned word, he was a saint,<br />For in everything he did he served the Greater Community.<br />Except for the war till the day he retired<br />He worked in a factory and never got fired,<br />But satisfied his employers, Fudge Motors Inc.<br />Yet he wasn't a scab or odd in his views,<br />For his union reports that he paid his dues,<br />(Our report of his union shows it was sound)<br />And our Social Psychology workers found<br />That he was popular with his mates and liked a drink.<br />The Press are convinced that he bought a paper every day,<br />And that his reactions to advertisements were normal in every way.<br />Policies taken out in his name prove that he was fully insured,<br />And his Health-card shows that he was once in hospital but left it cured.<br />Both Producers Research and High--Grade Living declare<br />He was fully sensible to the advantages of the Installment Plan<br />And had everything necessary to the Modern Man,<br />A gramophone, a radio, a car and a frigidaire.<br />Our researchers into Public Opinion are content<br />That he held the proper opinions for the time of the year;<br />When there was peace he was for peace; when there was war he went.<br />He was married and added five children to the population,<br />which our Eugenist says was the right number for a parent of his generation,<br />And our teachers report he never interfered with their education.<br />Was he free? Was he happy? The question is absurd:<br />Had anything been wrong, we should certainly have heard. <br /><br />The Polemarchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10958736917525649927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-70917164170942820472016-06-01T04:21:56.805-07:002016-06-01T04:21:56.805-07:00That makes sense. I'm just a bit careful with ...That makes sense. I'm just a bit careful with the terminology because I'm hyper-aware of shades of meaning and how they affect our mental approach to a topic.Ruaridhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13003128932063213463noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-3671425127389222932016-06-01T04:13:52.532-07:002016-06-01T04:13:52.532-07:00Well, what I mean by 'speculation' is clea...Well, what I mean by 'speculation' is clear going beyond the facts, such as the finding of a random archaeological artefact which says something like 'Judas' is clear evidence of the existence of Judas Iscariot. <br /><br />No it isn't. stop being silly. It is only evidence of someone called 'Judas'. Just because there may only be a few Judases in the historical record, it doesn't follow that the artefact is anything to do with them. Any link is speculation, at least in the sense I'm using it (and MB uses it, I think)The Polemarchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10958736917525649927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-81593071439053413922016-06-01T03:37:49.423-07:002016-06-01T03:37:49.423-07:00I had a similar experience with an acquaintance wh...I had a similar experience with an acquaintance who identified rather too strongly with Robert E. Lee!<br /><br />Yes, a good historian will set out the facts and tell what is fact and what is their interpretation. I'm not keen on the word speculation in this context, because it implies a lesser level of factual basis. Mind you, I am prone to referring to parts of my own works as 'the rampant speculation section'.<br /><br />Best that I not get involved in discussions on either US gun law or UK-Europe relations, because I get extremely irked by the wilful misuse and misinterpretation of the past in both cases. Suffice to say that, as research has shown, people focus too much on short-term gain even when it will have a net long-term deleterious effect on their lives.Ruaridhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13003128932063213463noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-86312856630544331802016-06-01T03:06:54.876-07:002016-06-01T03:06:54.876-07:00I have met someone who really did seem to think th...I have met someone who really did seem to think they were Napoleon, and very disconcerting they were after a while. But history fetishism does exists, and much of it revolves around World war Two.<br /><br />I think good history books lay out the evidence and clearly mark everything else as speculation, while bad ones confuse the two. I'm reading Mary Beard's SPQR at the moment, which is popular history, but she clearly marks speculation as such. <br /><br />Of course, evidence is rarely clear cut and univocal. We still bring a whole load of stuff to the table. Mind you, we do that in interpreting anything, I think. It is just part of being human.<br /><br />We do reconstruct that past to our own advantage. As a for example, would the drafters of the US Constitution really have thought that the right to bear arms meant that 2 year olds would shoot their parents? Almost certainly not, but the way the constitution is interpreted means that it happens.<br /><br />(I'm not trying to start an argument on US gun law, by the way, but it is better than talking about UK - Europe relations from my perspective).<br />The Polemarchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10958736917525649927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-66362176739465200272016-06-01T03:00:12.851-07:002016-06-01T03:00:12.851-07:00Well, if fiction doesn't apply to a wargame, I...Well, if fiction doesn't apply to a wargame, I'm not sure what does. Perhaps a better term is 'narrative'? We do tell a story, even if it is not a story that is determined in all its details by an author. The dice are part of the narrative resolution?<br /><br />'History' is something that is always disputed, I think. I usually assume that 'history' doesn't change, but historiography does, that is, our interpretation of the past changes, even though the 'facts' (oh dear, more scare quotes) don't. Not that my definitions hold any weight or water, of course.<br /><br />Nevertheless, I do suspect that wargames generally are grounded in the 'real' world and it is very hard to dissociate any wargame from that.The Polemarchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10958736917525649927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-43850540393987386222016-06-01T02:47:13.064-07:002016-06-01T02:47:13.064-07:00I think that as long as wargamers' fantasies d...I think that as long as wargamers' fantasies do no harm, then we can safely leave the Napoleon fetishists to their own inner world. There are definite issues with certain sectors fetishising particular elements of the past, and those need to be dealt with directly, but a wargamer acting that out on the tabletop is probably not too much of a worry. The conversation down the pub could be a tad tedious though!<br /><br />History text books are certainly not neutral artefacts. They reflect the limited sources from the past, mediated through the biases, theoretical values, and approach of the historian. I suppose the historian is creating a narrative of the past but, unlike historical fiction, there is an attempt to be objective within a given theoretical framework. Much of the work is interpretation of evidence, and there is a need to lay out a clear methodology so that others following can understand the conclusions better. I've always thought of it like CSI: History School; you focus on the evidence and just the evidence.<br /><br />I am inclined to agree with your last point. We define ourselves through our relationship with a constructed version of the past. It's a form of neo-colonialism, and not always tasteful.Ruaridhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13003128932063213463noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-57442080604529151092016-05-31T04:36:35.676-07:002016-05-31T04:36:35.676-07:00I dare say that we can easily describe ourselves a...I dare say that we can easily describe ourselves as fantasy wargamers. The problem is that some wargamer's fantasy is to redeem Napoleon's reputation by winning Waterloo.<br /><br />History text books are an interesting topic. Not fiction, agreed, but what is history, or the historian, actually doing? A lot still has to be assumed or implied to enable a textbook or monograph to be written at all.<br /><br />There is a school of thought that reckons that everything we can think is by analogy or metaphor, so we can only explain the present by using the past for our own purposes. I suppose it comes down to how honest we are doing it.The Polemarchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10958736917525649927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-88434184239549339302016-05-30T03:39:27.961-07:002016-05-30T03:39:27.961-07:00As a long-time re-enactor and gamer it has always ...As a long-time re-enactor and gamer it has always fascinated me that gamers are mostly devoid of any 'accuracy conscience' beyond button-counting. But that is ok if everyone is doing the same and it has no penalty. Reenactors have the same problem. Most think if they buy something someone has bothered to make then it must be ok. If everyone goes with the flow it is no problem. The pauses for thought happen when someone points out that people of the past are foreigners to us - as L.P. Hartley wrote. Modern vikings wearing gangster bandanas which would identify them as married women in viking times and wargames with troops self-sacrificing all over the place only give most people a short pause for thought..then they continue. The key is to get over it while acknowledging it. The spirit of Imaginations is just right I think (if not carried too far). Barry Lindon as opposed to de Merode-Westerloo. I think it is fun to see gamers criticising 'Flames of War'. It is a GAME not a simulation. Duuur..The whole of Hollywood's efforts have not shown you that yet ?( Cornwell prides himself in writing off-the-cuff with no references and is a good example of how far this fantasy can chime with our also modern psychologies).Plasticvikinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05949611855872874217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-56391365918880796572016-05-28T14:01:56.745-07:002016-05-28T14:01:56.745-07:00Aye, that was it. 'The case against toy soldie...Aye, that was it. 'The case against toy soldiers,' which I think was along the lines of 'toy soldiers get in the way of realism', and suggested various alternative approaches if you want to face historically realistic challenges.nundankethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12895608927860103442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-26457340001641356132016-05-28T11:35:38.218-07:002016-05-28T11:35:38.218-07:00My lips (and archives) are sealed! At least until...My lips (and archives) are sealed! At least until after the Third Partition of Poland, when the Grand Duchy disappeared from European maps, and poor Irwin-Amadeus II went into exile on the Wirral Peninsula. There is, apparently, a small monument to him somewhere in Hoylake.WSTKS-FM Worldwidehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14173042438761572040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-20366589221312308292016-05-28T09:40:06.074-07:002016-05-28T09:40:06.074-07:00IIRC the title of AH's article was "multi...IIRC the title of AH's article was "multipurpose Napoleonic infantry".<br />I suspect the late Paddy Griffith put the case for Andy Callan's hair roller armies in "The case against toy soldiers"Neil Pattersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13565511145163341782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-72412402740291092042016-05-28T09:13:34.202-07:002016-05-28T09:13:34.202-07:00Ah, sorry, I misunderstood then. That renders my a...Ah, sorry, I misunderstood then. That renders my attempts at humour earlier redundant and unfunny. Oh dear ...<br /><br />I can only really speak for medievalists, where there is the usual cross-section of humanity. Some are overly serious, while others are more inclined to 'play' with the topic. I've read a few pieces over the last several years discussing how the serious, aggressive, humourless types are perceived as more intelligent than the friendlier types regardless of actual intelligence, and thus the former attitude is encouraged and reinforced in academia. Perhaps it is the case that there are more overly serious historians for this reason. It's certainly a fact that I tend to gravitate (levitate?) towards those that have a sense of humour and avoid the overly serious types where I can, so my perception probably does not give a good sense of the average.<br /><br />Plagiarism is a huge bugbear these days, especially with essay-writing businesses churning out essays for students with the means to pay for them, and the ease of copying and pasting from t'internet. The emphasis on referencing almost certainly stems from the desire not to be seen to be plagiarising. Most people are especially careful these days, although I don't generally find it an issue with reading a text, unless the author uses endnotes. I hate endnotes!Ruaridhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13003128932063213463noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-87544921212529175672016-05-28T08:55:18.343-07:002016-05-28T08:55:18.343-07:00Suffice to say that it was on the front page of th...Suffice to say that it was on the front page of the Konditorei Herald. The journalist wrote that it was actually a source high up in the Stollen administration that admitted this, but pleaded 'confidential source' when pressed to reveal the name of their informant.Ruaridhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13003128932063213463noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-69992870703274518112016-05-28T07:29:37.592-07:002016-05-28T07:29:37.592-07:00Hmmm . . . here's a poem by Bertold Brecht:
W...Hmmm . . . here's a poem by Bertold Brecht:<br /><br />Who built Thebes of the seven gates?<br />In the books you will find the names of kings.<br />Did kings haul up the lumps of rock?<br />...<br />The young Alexander conquered India.<br />Was he alone?<br />Caesar beat the Gauls.<br />Did he not have even a cook with him?<br />...<br />Every page a victory.<br />Who cooked the feast for the victors?<br />Every ten years a great man.<br />Who paid the bill?<br />So many accounts.<br />So many questions.<br /><br />I have the same problem deciding how best to represent Napoleonic skirmishing . . . .GaryAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06963552380378929829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-31681598350476539172016-05-28T06:53:32.583-07:002016-05-28T06:53:32.583-07:00I'm sorry, but you have to reveal your sources...I'm sorry, but you have to reveal your sources. We do know, however, that the sandwich bread is purchased with the crusts already removed (we checked with the delivery man). His name is Olaf.MSFoyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14470241067504971068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-92171605164811273512016-05-28T06:50:51.721-07:002016-05-28T06:50:51.721-07:00No - not at all - that was merely oafish self-depr...No - not at all - that was merely oafish self-deprecation on my part. This chap is a particularly decent and knowledgeable fellow, though I have to say that my past experience (which is limited) is that the profession takes itself enormously seriously - maybe this is appropriate? I fear that the industry in reference-generation in history is part of our modern-day obsession of making errors into someone else's fault - don't blame me, i was just quoting Goebbels etc.MSFoyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14470241067504971068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-35720365367304702392016-05-28T06:45:40.867-07:002016-05-28T06:45:40.867-07:00I heard a rumour that a neighbouring Grand Duchy h...I heard a rumour that a neighbouring Grand Duchy has documents proving that the archives of Stollen are all forgeries! :)Ruaridhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13003128932063213463noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-81557283615710155432016-05-28T06:44:11.841-07:002016-05-28T06:44:11.841-07:00Sounds interesting, although from your first missi...Sounds interesting, although from your first missive, I get the impression that the historian was a tad patronising about it all. That would spoil any good discussion.Ruaridhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13003128932063213463noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-1892934126933334762016-05-28T06:39:42.252-07:002016-05-28T06:39:42.252-07:00Any minute now someone will come along and dispute...Any minute now someone will come along and dispute your history of Stollen - I hope you have archives...MSFoyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14470241067504971068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-45906415189116678802016-05-28T06:33:57.838-07:002016-05-28T06:33:57.838-07:00As I recall, the discussion was around the topic o...As I recall, the discussion was around the topic of how much weight should be attached to a particular viewpoint - some of the stuff was self-evident, such as secondary sources should not be references to other secondary sources - some was rules of thumb about preponderance of secondary references, and occasions where debate might come as to which was valid - e.g. a discussion of a common soldiers' view of WW1 might rely heavily on personal correspondence, which in itself might include proportions of regimental folklore presented as eyewitness - whether, on balance, this would be more or less reliable than official records is a topic for debate in the pub - or at dinner, of course.MSFoyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14470241067504971068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-19801839978193358412016-05-28T06:24:09.757-07:002016-05-28T06:24:09.757-07:00Given that I only recently realised that 'gull...Given that I only recently realised that 'gullible' has not, in fact, been removed from the dictionary, I fear that my presence would only have confused matters!<br /><br />It would not surprise me to learn that some historians might have tried calculating primary/secondary source ratios for supporting arguments, to be honest, although I am unaware of any that actually do. My lack of awareness should not be taken as an indicator of much of anything other than my ignorance though.Ruaridhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13003128932063213463noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-14394333267513915802016-05-28T06:20:34.580-07:002016-05-28T06:20:34.580-07:00Crikey, that article was a while ago. Must be 30 y...Crikey, that article was a while ago. Must be 30 years?<br /><br />Was it in that article that AH said you may as well use hair-roller armies or was it Paddy Griffith in another article?<br /><br />Whichever it was, the general thrust of it has stuck with me for a long time. And conveniently gave me the excuse to be a little more lazy in my research of uniforms!nundankethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12895608927860103442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-38559037515152520792016-05-28T06:14:00.651-07:002016-05-28T06:14:00.651-07:00I am an easy dupe, of course - gosh, I really wish...I am an easy dupe, of course - gosh, I really wish you'd been there.MSFoyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14470241067504971068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-41684947947173118652016-05-28T06:06:24.308-07:002016-05-28T06:06:24.308-07:00There's a formula for calculating primary to s...There's a formula for calculating primary to secondary source ratios in an article? Crikey! I'm discombobulated, and not a little boggled, by this idea. Doesn't sound very historian-like to me. I fear the person in question may have been having you on, or they were a television 'historian' ...Ruaridhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13003128932063213463noreply@blogger.com