tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post5233131284958979969..comments2024-03-28T03:10:23.679-07:00Comments on Polemarch: Battles and SiegesThe Polemarchhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10958736917525649927noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-84447330941351454792015-06-15T04:30:30.847-07:002015-06-15T04:30:30.847-07:00I do remember childhood games or Roman forts and A...I do remember childhood games or Roman forts and Airfix Ancient Britons, but no-one hung around to get starved. I think the 'romance' of siege wargames is probably in the assault, defence, not in the grim business of knocking holes in walls or starving people and waiting for disease to take its toll.<br /><br />Perhaps that is really why we do not like sieges: the unpleasantness lasts a long time.The Polemarchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10958736917525649927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-71084985400039679402015-06-15T04:27:53.656-07:002015-06-15T04:27:53.656-07:00So we can either have the siege and abstract the b...So we can either have the siege and abstract the battles, or the other way around? I guess that as Mr Foy suggested, the interlocking time scales might not work too well. <br /><br />Is this the only problem?The Polemarchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10958736917525649927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-91393335164827234922015-06-15T04:22:12.598-07:002015-06-15T04:22:12.598-07:00having never really conducted wargame siege operat...having never really conducted wargame siege operations, I think i disagree. A campaign should be the perfect place for sieges. It is possible that a weekly move is too quick, however. Armies simply do not move that fast, and geneals usually like to attend the next ball before issuing orders to move.<br /><br />Maybe. The Polemarchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10958736917525649927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-58525451147258134292015-06-15T04:20:14.033-07:002015-06-15T04:20:14.033-07:00I suspect that, just from your list, there is a lo...I suspect that, just from your list, there is a lot of work here. But it might well be worth it and would certainly give focus to a campaign game.The Polemarchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10958736917525649927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-53246145106749814272015-06-15T04:18:38.440-07:002015-06-15T04:18:38.440-07:00I guess we run into the same simplicity / accuracy...I guess we run into the same simplicity / accuracy / playability complex as any other rule set. <br /><br />When I wrote I did think of WW1 Western Front as an exception. It probably is one, due to the defensive capabilities of artillery and machine gun. <br /><br />If you do Napoleonic sieges, i think we need photographs, Some of the guns are quite big...The Polemarchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10958736917525649927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-10684805228920396772015-06-15T04:15:44.809-07:002015-06-15T04:15:44.809-07:00Got hold of the wrong end of the stick?? Well, may...Got hold of the wrong end of the stick?? Well, maybe; at least I have grabbed a stick which is some sort of progress,,,,<br /><br />I think that, yes, there are also practical problems with sieges, but I also think that a lot of the hard conceptual rules stuff has not been undertaken and, with some exceptions, sieges are simply not exciting enough for a two hour or so wargame. <br /><br />An assault or point defence might be a wargame. The whole siteing batteries and creating breaches bit, not so much, perhaps. The Polemarchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10958736917525649927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-47876115957017577992015-06-15T03:31:55.769-07:002015-06-15T03:31:55.769-07:00It is interesting that attacking forts and castles...It is interesting that attacking forts and castles is often one of the earliest sorts of war game we plan as children whether with toys or in the backyard. <br /><br />I've participated in a few siege games over the years, usually using some variation of the Duffy sort of siege turns measured in days and tactical or assault turns representibg a handfull of minutes. It can make for exciting games but once its on the table it really becomes all about the bombardment, sorties and assaults. eg <a href="http://gameofmonth.blogspot.ca/search/label/Siege%20of%20Adleheim" rel="nofollow"> recent example </a><br />Starving the plastic or metal inhabitants of some ancient town just doesn't seem to make for a very exciting game.Ross Mac rmacfa@gmail.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04053555991679802013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-67747689263235481372015-06-14T07:26:42.200-07:002015-06-14T07:26:42.200-07:00I agree with the original article that sieges are ...I agree with the original article that sieges are under-represnted in wargaming compared to battles. I would love to find a good mechanism for gaming sieges. The game in the appendix of Fire and Stone looks OK but they doesn't get the full picture I'd like to create. I think this would only be possible in a campaign game even if the rest of the campaign were to be abstracted.nundankethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12895608927860103442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-14505953385105334222015-06-14T07:16:26.786-07:002015-06-14T07:16:26.786-07:00I'm quite an enthusiast for sieges - I even ha...I'm quite an enthusiast for sieges - I even have toy fortifications, and I have the intention of polishing up the rules I have to the point where they give a game I can actually play with other people. Two things:<br /><br />(1) Prejudice - I quote Bruce Quarrie's "Napoleon's Campaigns in Miniature" - '[....] conducting a siege on a wargames table is an unprofitable and boring affair [...] and thus very rarely seen. What is required is a fairly simple set of campaign rules for the conduct of sieges "off table".'<br /><br />So that's it then - no more to be said. Well, in fact I disagree, but...<br /><br />(2) I do agree that "off-table" is the way to handle sieges in a map campaign - the timescale of sieges does not lend itself to weekly moves, nor laying out a siege game on the table while the map movement somehow goes on in the background (foreground?). In my recent Peninsular campaign I did algorithm-based sieges because of the timescale clash, and also because I was paranoid about the possibility of two simultaneous sieges.<br /><br />A siege on its own, as a game in itself, is a better prospect, though I think it is ideal for a solo project. It also requires a lot of scenario rules for how the rest of the world - supply, relief forces etc - fits in, given the fact that a relieving army can march a long way if the garrison holds out a while.<br /><br />I'm a big fan of sieges, though I'd feel better about this if my game was more complete and better tested!MSFoyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14470241067504971068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-32821309431695133002015-06-14T05:40:06.852-07:002015-06-14T05:40:06.852-07:00I've been thinking about how to do a siege gam...I've been thinking about how to do a siege game for quite while. I think the key would be to have some kind of simple campaign system which covers attrition, the construction of trenches, mines, engines etc and the bombardment of walls. This campaign game would then lead to battles played with miniatures, such as storming the breach, sorties etc. I imagine the campaign game to be quite abstract, almost like a euro-style board game, like the old 'Mighty Empires' from GW.<br />If I ever get around doing this, I'll let you know :-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-68427401711350208162015-06-14T04:08:24.292-07:002015-06-14T04:08:24.292-07:00You and CK both make some good points, yours as to...You and CK both make some good points, yours as to the importance of the siege in military history and CK in the reasons for the scarcity of siege games. I recall the old Chivalry and Sorcery rules of the 1970s, I think, had elaborate rules for paper sieges, calculating siege works, tunnels and saps using graph paper. There were also elaborate rules for food consumption and starvation. When I ran a medieval campaign, based loosely on the HYW, we had a lot of sieges, with a very simple model of town walls, using a variant of WRG rules. The sieges were actually assaults and always won for the attacker, because the geometry of the model allowed the attacked to mass missile troops on one section and weaken the defending unit before the ladders arrived. That was a defect in the rules. I often wish we'd slowed the playing of the campaign down and used proper siege rules.<br />I suppose some genres of gaming favour field battles disproportionately. I can't remember ever seeing a Napoleonics siege game at a convention. Conversely I suppose almost all WW1 gaming counts as siege warfare, as you can't really play without trench models. However, most WW2 games are open country affairs, when fortifications and sieges were important, although often short affairs given the superiority of offensive fire support, such as at Cherbourg in 1944. <br />Now I want to head down to the basement and make some proper fortifications for my 6mm Napoleonics!Mad Padrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00410143683610813671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-80830953645889902212015-06-14T04:07:22.312-07:002015-06-14T04:07:22.312-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Mad Padrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00410143683610813671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-50024417317118982222015-06-13T02:39:20.963-07:002015-06-13T02:39:20.963-07:00I think you may have the wrong end of the stick th...I think you may have the wrong end of the stick there Polemarch. I think you're absolutely right about the imbalance in wargaming regarding open battle and siege and there maybe something in the idea that battles are more romantic, but I think the explanation for the paucity of siege games maybe somewhat more prosaic than that. <br /><br />Most wargamers come to wargaming via a love of toy soldiers. We collect a few in childhood, we develop rules for them and move on from there. A siege requires digging, construction, sapping, etc - vital parts in the conduct of the business, all very hard to reproduce using toy soldiers. A wargamer can replicate a battle fairly easily, but a siege requires specialist terrain that can be altered to suit the circumstances. <br /><br />I think the toy soldier and the difficulty of getting appropriate terrain are likely to be significant factors in determining the number of siege games. A look at computer wargaming, which arguably handles that particular area very well, shows a plethora of siege games, Dungeon Keeper, Stronghold, Besieged, Boom Beach, Crusade, etc. Base defence is the bedrock of the Real Time Strategy section of computer wargaming. <br /><br />To my mind wargamers show themselves to be enthusiastic besiegers once the equipment to do so is there. Conrad Kinchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15683395740934527502noreply@blogger.com