tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post4512292854539250210..comments2024-03-28T03:10:23.679-07:00Comments on Polemarch: The Downside of ModelsThe Polemarchhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10958736917525649927noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-22534300360863825982013-12-02T00:38:44.553-08:002013-12-02T00:38:44.553-08:00I'm not sure. some things, like human physiolo...I'm not sure. some things, like human physiology would transfer, but a lot of other things, such as world view, would have changed massively. <br /><br />For example, Dark Ager-s were probably more used to death and gore than modern Western liberals. On the other hand they would be much less used to loud noises. Trying to decide which of these is important, and how, is really difficult, I imagine.<br /><br />Plus we would also project assumptions from our own time back onto theirs, which can mislead as well.<br /><br />it is a necessary but difficult thing to do, I think.The Polemarchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10958736917525649927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-75315968769612189442013-12-01T11:41:51.849-08:002013-12-01T11:41:51.849-08:00Is there any relevant military knowledge that can ...Is there any relevant military knowledge that can be used to examine the models we might derive from reading primary sources? In other fields (science or medicine or maths, even economics perhaps) then one might use one's current knowledge as a basis for developing a model for judging the effectiveness of the approaches of ancient philosophers/doctors/mathemiticians/politicians etc. Is there a similar basis in modern understanding of conflict to help form models of ancient conflicts? Such work as I have seen focuses on logistics - in the form of 'how large an army could be supported in "Dark Age" Britain' questions - but can anything be said more generally about fighting itself?<br /><br />RegardsJWHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01637785437909299947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-47289209534802335302013-11-30T09:37:19.368-08:002013-11-30T09:37:19.368-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.JWHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01637785437909299947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-76728853465447927632013-11-30T02:24:53.687-08:002013-11-30T02:24:53.687-08:00Possibly such religious elements did have a role, ...Possibly such religious elements did have a role, because the people who saw them were encouraged or discouraged by the particular entrails or whatever. The question then arises how do we incorporate them into a model or rule set? I don't have an answer, but it is perhaps our own secular age which makes us dismiss such things from our models so readily.<br /><br />As to reading primary sources, my view at present it that we do need to do so, but not just the battle reports. Everyone has a view of how the world works, and this can only be discerned by wider reading of the author and their times. <br /><br />So we have to develop a model of how, say, Herodotus writes before we can start to say anything about his reports, reliability and so on. and that, of course, is only our model. Sooner or later, that way madness lies, of course.The Polemarchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10958736917525649927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-35622586489249765772013-11-30T01:59:16.873-08:002013-11-30T01:59:16.873-08:00Yes indeed - I am nervous about suggesting that I ...Yes indeed - I am nervous about suggesting that I could do with more information about entail reading, but I'm not sure how this worked. Were the religious procedures intended to influence events, or did they just avoid fighting on days when the entrails didn't look good? Or both?MSFoyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14470241067504971068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-36376605916147008932013-11-29T21:34:29.953-08:002013-11-29T21:34:29.953-08:00Just a couple of random thoughts but I'm not s...Just a couple of random thoughts but I'm not sure exactly how it would help. If I read more primary sources, fair enough, I'm in a better position to critique existing uses of those primary sources. But the primary sources may not be a much better guide to 'what happened at Arbela' because surely the actual primary source may be in possession of 'models' which are even less good than my own.<br />For example, some ancient/medieval sources seem to stress a religious element, either from entrail reading or from religious portents. But I wouldn't include them my model of those battles, as I assume them to have no actual significance. On the other hand, the secondary source writer has all kinds of tools of comparison and analysis unavailable to the primary source writer.JWHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01637785437909299947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-71753606612921861792013-11-27T00:29:10.444-08:002013-11-27T00:29:10.444-08:00I understand from some figure manufacturers that F...I understand from some figure manufacturers that French Imperial Guard and French line sell in roughly equal quantities...<br />Even 200 years later we still believe the propaganda.<br /><br />Anyway, to take as an example, Cromwell's 'God made them as stubble to our swords...'. Is this evidence that it was an easy victory, an over the top metaphor, Puritan religious fervour, or ample evidence that Cromwell needed help from some kind people? Some of the answers to this question impact on writing rules, of course.The Polemarchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10958736917525649927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-60865673832212126382013-11-26T09:04:59.674-08:002013-11-26T09:04:59.674-08:00You can't ignore the effect of our prejudices ...You can't ignore the effect of our prejudices though and I always find it funny that people can read the same sources and come to completely different conclusions. I can only think it's a case of seeing what you want to see sometimes.<br />I'm thinking of the number of times I've had the rules query "The French Imperial Guard aren't invincible under your rules. Is it a mistake?"Chris Gricenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-37848479684316626242013-11-26T01:07:47.120-08:002013-11-26T01:07:47.120-08:00Many (though not all) gamers like to try things ou...Many (though not all) gamers like to try things out, and that is a good thing. I do wonder if we get a little too focussed on some of the issues, and, as I think I said before, morale is an ill-defined concept anyway, but usually agreed to be the most important.<br /><br />I used Taylors rules too, very briefly, before rewriting the ECW set to include dice. I think they are still on my 'dead rules' shelf. And i think I was less than twelve at that point. either endearing precocious or an annoying little imp, I suppose.The Polemarchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10958736917525649927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-9795038955448991162013-11-26T01:04:35.802-08:002013-11-26T01:04:35.802-08:00Interesting. I recall Firepower, and wondering how...Interesting. I recall Firepower, and wondering how anyone ever managed to win a battle if they didn't hit something. I think Bert Hall's Renaissance Arms and Armour does a similar thing for earlier firearms, his point being, in part, that muzzle loaders were inherently inaccurate, due to the bullet bouncing down the barrel.<br /><br />On the other hand, muskets and artillery going off and possibly killing you is quite scary enough. I guess we could count casualties in figures as reductions in effectiveness, but it is confusing one model with another. Plus, when you remove figures, the units get small (something very odd with WRG rules). <br /><br />As for reality, my guess is that we'll never get there, but we might obtaining an increasing grasp on it as we innovate. Possibly...The Polemarchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10958736917525649927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-1227175238632826942013-11-25T12:54:29.335-08:002013-11-25T12:54:29.335-08:00I think one of the most refreshing things about wa...I think one of the most refreshing things about wargaming as a hobby is the host of different models that are out there and the readiness of many wargamers to experiment with new ones. Yes, a lot of the models use the same basic scaffolding of command, movement, shooting, morale, but in very different ways. The perfect set that fulfils everyone's requirements for the perfect game is a long way off yet, but it's fun trying to find it.<br /><br />Realism, of course, depends on perspective. We do sometimes base our model on a single dodgy source and a lot of best guesses. Good primary sources can be a bit of a luxury sometimes.<br /><br />And yes, I am that soldier. I used Arthur Taylor's rules. What can I say - I was twelve. Chris Gricenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-86261302155710936832013-11-23T04:00:26.902-08:002013-11-23T04:00:26.902-08:00On the topic of the pursuit of "realism"...On the topic of the pursuit of "realism" in wargames by the building of mathematical models, I did a blog post a couple of years ago which I would struggle to add anything to now. If anyone is interested, and can bear it, check out<br /><br />http://prometheusinaspic.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/compromise-in-wargames-3-probability.html<br /><br />I claim no great merit or originality, but the cast includes Peter Young, BP Hughes and NN Taleb - no expense spared there, even if the script was a bit iffy!<br /><br />Maybe we do need new models - I think what needs to be new is the approach - some of the models we have already inherited suffer from the fact that the originators tried to stick too closely to reality, or their idea of reality, which is significantly different.MSFoyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14470241067504971068noreply@blogger.com