tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post170406569149162983..comments2024-03-17T04:35:24.517-07:00Comments on Polemarch: Traffic Jams and Chariot TacticsThe Polemarchhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10958736917525649927noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-47642050633536761112015-01-06T00:32:08.359-08:002015-01-06T00:32:08.359-08:00I suspect that you are right. I'd add the Azte...I suspect that you are right. I'd add the Aztec style Flower Wars for the heroic fighter thing, which is like Homer minus the chariots.Mostly, the Celts, I suspect, used chariots because they hadn't run into a volley of pila yet.<br /><br />I think that the Britons used the chariots more when they were indulging in hit and run tactics (hence, the heroic bits) rather than full battle. As for Roman counting, I think most ancient numbers and reporting thereof was a bit dodgy. Most of its seems to me to be on what was (rudely) called the 'mining engineers count' when I was at university, which went "One, Two, Lots...".The Polemarchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10958736917525649927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-58457447749684251512015-01-05T07:23:07.038-08:002015-01-05T07:23:07.038-08:00Third attempt to comment - no idea what happened t...Third attempt to comment - no idea what happened to first two. Luddite Man strikes again!<br /><br />Thinking specifically about 'Celtic' chariots, I suspect that we don't model these particularly well in most wargames rules because the rules tend not to be for the type of 'heroic' warfare that chariots are at their best in.<br /><br />They are pretty inefficient as weapons platform (could they hit anything from an unsprung moving platform?) or as a battlefield transport (one warrior:one vehicle is a pretty poor delivery ratio) but as a vehicle for showing off, they are ideal. They are the iron age equivalent of the shiny sports car with go-faster stripes, fluffy dice and a bootful of expensive sound equipment - absolutely no practical use, but just the thing to flaunt at other boy racers.<br />That said, I imagine a line of these coming towards you might put the wind up less steady troops. From the receiving end, they probably appear to be a lot more dangerous than they really are - which is relatively slow, widely spaced and difficult to manoeuvre.<br />No, I think they are all about show. In a set of rules for heroic warfare, where a handful of psychopaths on each side seek each other out for single combat, like the Red Branch tales or the Iliad, the morale effect of flashy chariot work can be taken into account. When fighting in battle against the Romans, where extravagant showing off would fall on stony ground, the lack of practicality of chariots would soon become obvious. Then they are expensive, slow, unmanoeuvrable light horse.<br /><br />Mind, I profess to be unconvinced by Caesar's account of the numbers of chariots retained by Cassivelaunus - dodgy Roman counting, if you ask me. I + I = X, X + X = C, and so on.<br />Chris Gricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11140516359480860914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-16795253363185652532015-01-05T01:15:58.413-08:002015-01-05T01:15:58.413-08:00I agree that there is often a lot of hyperbole in ...I agree that there is often a lot of hyperbole in the accounts. Chariots wheel to wheel would quickly land up in a sorry tangle and the vehicles would only be useful as firewood. <br /><br />As for Christmas, I did suggest to someone that we moved the religious festival sometime more convenient (and warmer).The Polemarchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10958736917525649927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-75724313816166925852015-01-05T01:14:00.408-08:002015-01-05T01:14:00.408-08:00I think that the lack of disciplined and trained i...I think that the lack of disciplined and trained infantry was a big bonus to the chariot. i imagine that chariots look big, scary and, of course, contain your social superiors, so running away seems like a good option. <br /><br />I also started to wonder about the speed of ancient warfare, that it might be an awful lot slower that i imagine. A chariot, even with 4 horses, is not going to get up much speed in a battlefield situation. So maybe the mere threat of a chariot lumbering into motion would be enough to discourage the opposition.The Polemarchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10958736917525649927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-4019831518933897942015-01-04T10:16:59.310-08:002015-01-04T10:16:59.310-08:00I think Ross' answer is spot-on in reply to yo...I think Ross' answer is spot-on in reply to your very interesting post. I suspect that as different civilizations developed skills with horse riding and associated technologies (saddles?) then chariots became less useful and less cost-effective. <br />In general I think phrases like "hub to hub", "wheel to wheel", "boot to boot" are beloved of poets and storytellers for dramatic effect but not very reflective of what happened on battlefields.<br />BTW, I agree with the sentiment in your first paragraph about Christmas.Mad Padrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00410143683610813671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5185876513552272723.post-50992918797467335472015-01-04T07:24:20.472-08:002015-01-04T07:24:20.472-08:00This is one of those topics where we can probably ...This is one of those topics where we can probably never get past speculation and untested theories but I think it is no coincidence the the introduction of cavalry is rapidly followed by the disappearance of chariots as a major arm and decisive battle weapon. That it lingered on in remote areas or as a small number of specialty weapons is not surprising as neither of these things is unique to chariots.<br /><br />If we look at the armies where the chariots arm was large and critical, armies like the Hittites and early Egyptian armies, there was no cavalry so chariots would have been useful for scouting and messengers etc things where cavalry was quick to take over once horse riding was introduced. Against an enemy of trained close order troops chariot probably had little impact but for a mob of poorly armed and disciplined rebels or tribesmen the reaction to the rapid approach of a squadron of chariots was probably much the same as people in a Spanish street when a bull is let loose or when a modern crowd is charged by mounted police with batons. Sauve qui peut! <br /><br />As an archery platform, they would carry more arrows than the average foot slogger and would have the mobility to get away when threatened but I doubt they could match the firepower of a mass of foot archers or do enough damage against a block of spearmen to do anything but wear them down by the constant threat and occasional casualty. Once horse archers became available, this role seems to have been dropped (relatively) quickly since the horsemen would have been more mobile, less vulnerable to enemy fire and provide 2 archers for each set of 2 horses and 2 men where the chariot provided only 1.<br /><br />The later scythed chariots did have at least 2 successes but its easier to understand why few armies adopted them than it is to understand why any did or why as late as the 16thC some people tried to revive a modern version. I put them into the same category as tiny robot anti-tank mines in wwii. A desperate attempt to make up for a lack of proper weapons (or in ancient terms the lack of an adequate number of really solid infantry).<br /><br />-Ross <br /><br /> Ross Mac rmacfa@gmail.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04053555991679802013noreply@blogger.com